How have customer’s browsing behaviors changed? How can you include emotional touchpoints and create an efficient in-store experience? What does the future of sustainability in packaging look like?
Wendy Liebmann, founder and CEO of WSL Strategic Retail, sits down with host Andy Murray to discuss her answers and insights to these questions and more in Episode 4 of the “It’s a Customer’s World” podcast.
WSL is a global consultancy that helps clients across several industries anticipate and activate change through innovative shopper-led retail strategies. Wendy is known as an innovator of shopper insights, and her goal is to get executives out of their ivory towers to meet shoppers on the shopping floor. She publishes research in the “How America Shops” survey, has extensive global experience in marketing and retail research, and holds a degree in business and psychology from the University of South Wales. She is known for her unique combination of Australian earthiness, global retail vision, provocative viewpoints, and inspirational storytelling.
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Andy Murray: (00:05)
Hi, I'm Andy Murray. Welcome to It's a Customer's World podcast. Now more than ever,
retailers and brands are accelerating their quest to be more customer centric. But to be truly
customer centric, it requires both a shift in mindset and ways of working, not just in marketing
but in all parts of the organization. In this podcast series, I'll be talking with practitioners,
thought leaders and scholars to hear their thoughts on what it takes to be a leader in today's
customer centric world. Today I have with me, Wendy Liebmann. Wendy founded WSL a global
consultancy that helps clients anticipate and activate change through innovative shopper led
retail strategies. She is recognized as an innovator of shopper insights. Her goal is to get
executives out of the ivory towers to meet shoppers on the selling floor, be it physical or digital.
Andy Murray: (01:07)
WSL consults to such industries as retail, health, beauty, fashion, food beverages, home,
personal care entertainment, publishing, financial services, I could go on. But they also publish
research called How America Shops, which I've had a chance to receive a number of times over
the years. It's been highly regarded, it is a highly regarded survey that's been going on since
1990. And it tracks how shoppers look at retail then looks at predicting where both might be
headed. Wendy has extensive global experience in marketing, retail, research, beginning in her
native Australia where she learned to be a passionate shopper. She holds a degree in business and
psychology from the University of New South Wales in Sydney. And Wendy is also noted for
her unique combination of Australian earthiness, global retail vision, provocative viewpoint and
inspirational storytelling. Welcome Wendy and thank you for joining me.
Wendy Liebmann: (02:02)
Thank you Andy. I'm delighted to be here to talk all things shopper and customer experience.
Andy Murray: (02:09)
Well, we have a lot to talk about in terms of the customer's world and what's happening in it, but
I guess before we start, perhaps I can talk a bit about what's going on in your world. Just tell me
a bit of what's going on and some of the learnings you might have around the customer insight
work you've been doing over the last X number of years.
Wendy Liebmann: (02:29)
I think this certainly, this last six months or eight months has been a very interesting learning not
just from insights around the customer shopper and the retail experience, but also how we all
have to adapt to our business and the way we do business. One of the things that's been really
important for us is to be able to help our clients stay very engaged, thinking about the near term
future as well as the longer term future. So some of the things that we have been seeing, I think
the biggest insight for me is that some of the shifts we've been seeing that are COVID driven and
how shoppers are responding have really come from foundational shifts that were in place before
the pandemic arrived. So the move to digital shopping, to online shopping, click and collect, all
those things would make shopping easier, faster for shoppers, for people, were in place, clearly
COVID has ramped that up.
Wendy Liebmann: (03:31)
The move to preventative health and wellness, huge, huge opportunity and trend already in place
that we were seeing in all our research. So lots of these things that we're seeing heightened today
are really things that were in the works and shoppers are just absolutely embracing those tools to
get on with their lives. So I think that's one of the things that I would say has been really
interesting to watch. And I think secondly, the incredible resilience of the American shopper and
consumer as shopper, the American person to deal with this extraordinary pandemic and find
ways to do what they need to do when it comes to goods and services, taking care of their
families, figuring out how to get to work, protect themselves from the virus. I mean, there's some
extraordinary learnings we see in our data, our... what I call our COVID series of research that
we've been doing that makes me just marvel at how Americans just get on with it.
Andy Murray: (04:36)
Well, that's really encouraging to hear and I do see as well probably not as much data of course
as you see that there's acceleration of business strategies and consumer behavior that has
probably accelerated and I know in some of the online retailers with grocery, that those sales
have moved up what they were probably targeting eight years from now. And so it's a
tremendous shift in that. And I guess I would be interested in what your thoughts are around
what you might see in your next survey results that would indicate what just happened. The
feeling of what's changed and what kind of surprises might be in there that could be a bit
unexpected. I know you can't forecast the future, but I bet you're really looking for
Wendy Liebmann: (05:21)
I think I can
Andy Murray: (05:21)
Well, you probably can. I bet you're looking forward to doing that next survey because part of
me thinks that quite a few things will change and mostly I think you're right it would be
accelerated, but there might be and hopefully you'll find this in the research some things that will be sticky and I'd love to know what kinds of things would be sticky that probably wasn't there as much before.
Wendy Liebmann: (05:41)
I think the obvious and you've alluded to that, the stickiness of buying online, basic essentials. So we had seen the growth of online shopping obviously. You had in categories like technology and fashion, lots of categories where people have been buying online for some considerable time. Obviously the pandemic translated into people taking that knowledge and using it for things like buying everyday groceries and across the country not just in pockets, not just higher income across the country, because it was all then about safety and access. And what people have learned from that and we've already because we've been doing all this work, but you're right we've got hopefully not a last COVID study, but another COVID study coming towards the end of the year.
Wendy Liebmann: (06:27)
What people have learned is it's really it can be really easy to get those things off the list so I can
do what I want with my time. And we began to see that before in fact, some work we were doing
with friends, mutual friends of the family here, where we would see like six out of 10 people
said, I want to do my shopping faster so I have time for other things. Now, this was pre
pandemic. So this notion now of buying everyday essentials, things like who could care, paper
towels, toilet paper, let's have that conversation later. Basic groceries, every day online has just
become something people said oh, that worked. Maybe it didn't work in the very beginning
because the challenges of getting stuff delivered quickly and in stock positions, but now it works.
Wendy Liebmann: (07:18)
And whether it's ordering online and having it delivered home, or whether it's ordering online
and driving up to the store and having it put in the trunk, drive throughs, all of that now has made
people very comfortable and will continue to make people comfortable. It's not just about safety
now, it's about time and life and what do I want to do with my life?
Andy Murray: (07:41)
That's an interesting observation and it leads to some interesting conclusions. So if online
shopping allows you to take the time back and I've always felt that shoppers had a time budget, a
money budget and a frustration budget, and there's only so much of those they're going to give to
any particular category. So following the logic of what you've just shared, if you start going
online to get those key categories that are essentials, online is not a great place to browse and
what physical retail had was an ability even if you were looking in a traditionally boring category
of essentials, you still might have some browsing behavior on the different choices on the couch,
but probably not that much.
Andy Murray: (08:22)
And so this area of how do customers browse probably means that in those categories that have
moved primarily online, once you're locked into a brand, you're probably going to stick with that
brand because it's so easy to get it on an essential way and you're not going to really spend a lot
of time browsing to see other brands. So big implications for suppliers in those categories who
are wanting to get trial on new, when their categories predominantly moved online to a different
experience. What are your thoughts on that?
Wendy Liebmann: (08:51)
Absolutely. And I think it puts the owners back both on the brands and the retail partners to think
about how do I communicate new in a world that is now about efficiency, safety, time, price.
Somebody said to me the other day, which I thought was a wonderful example, they were
marveling at how efficient Target's order online pick up at store had become, but Target is a very
browsing kind of store, right? It's one of those places that you go in and plan to do four things
and spend $200. So she was saying, which was that sort of anecdotal listening to the shopper
because it's amazing what you hear in those sort of intimate moments. But what I miss is being
able to get my Starbucks coffee. So she raised the question okay, so if I'm ordering online and
picking up from store and one of the kids is loading the stuff in my trunk, couldn't they bring me
a coffee too?
Andy Murray: (09:46)
Great idea. What an insight
Wendy Liebmann: (09:48)
You think about... exactly. So listen to [inaudible 00:09:50] always say, follow the shopper and
they will lead you to the future. So that thought, but it's also the thought about how do I in a non
browsing process, how do I engage without disrupting the fact that they want to do this
efficiently? Now, is it the reminder? Don't forget beauty categories, which may not be
necessarily an essential, for some of us clearly it is. But if it's like did you buy a new winter
skincare product, don't forget winter is coming, all of those things. How do I create a different
conversation in a world where I may not to your point be wandering down the aisles of the store.
So I think we have to think about that as marketers, as brand people, as retailers, how do we do
that to remind people.
Wendy Liebmann: (10:40)
And then I would say the other part to that is people will still go into the store, but the nature of
their trip, the nature of their journey at least in the next six to 12 months will be quite different, it
will be about fast. And so how do you find those what we would call emotional touchpoints to
embrace them in those moments, to engage them with either what's new, or just a personal
connection between you and me as associate and consumer shopper.
Andy Murray: (11:18)
Absolutely. And to your point on time, the online switch has really highlighted just how
important customers valued time over budget and other things and yet I would be worried of any
retailer that sent up the white flag of time management to grocery, home shopping, or pick up
and didn't think about the in-store experience as a time element as well. You can't just say well,
if they're time pressed they'll just shop online. Well, actually a lot of categories are very time
consuming to shop because it's difficult to work for many reasons. One, it's difficult to work out
the value because they're over assorted and perhaps under choice. And so when you're looking at
the store, I think for me it just highlights the importance of thinking about customers time to
make decisions and every part of the physical space as well and the online shift is a good
example of just how important that really is.
Wendy Liebmann: (12:15)
And I think there's something interesting about that too because we're already starting to see how
people are getting back into physical stores. We saw the shrinkage on that in some of our first
work in April, may, June. In new work we've just done, always just doing new work that hasn't
been published yet. We're starting to see a move back into physical stores, but the trip is
changing. So to your point in that I think that's a really important discussion. One of our clients,
one of our CPG clients said recently boy, we've got a CEO who's saying if everything's moved
online, why are we spending, why are we doing any of our trade spending, any of our marketing
spending, any of our shoppers spending in store?
Wendy Liebmann: (12:59)
Why aren't we pushing it all? And she was like oh, give me some insights, give me some data
that I can go to him with three things and say why. We saw in non-essential categories at about
70% of shoppers said they wanted to get back to the store as soon as they could. Now, that didn't
mean the trip hasn't changed and how they embrace the store whether it was a big box, or a small
box. But there was this desire in things that weren't easy to shop for that they wanted to get back
to the store, the physical store. So that was one aspect that was really important. And I think to
your point, it's not assuming... So good news people want to get back to the store emotionally
and because it's practical in some instances, but we can't leave the store the way it was.
Andy Murray: (13:47)
That's right. That's a great insight. Say some more about that.
Wendy Liebmann: (13:51)
So I really think that the nature of the store, think about what it used to be and in many retailers
still is, where's the milk? At the back, right?
Andy Murray: (13:58)
Yeah. Big time [crosstalk 00:14:00] reason for that, obviously keep them in the store longer.
Wendy Liebmann: (14:03)
Thank you. Now, people have been telling retailers for years, you know what? I get it. I know
you want me to walk through the whole store, I know what you... why you're doing it, I'm smart
enough to know that. It's unacceptable. It was unacceptable then, you'd hear busy mums saying,
and you want me to do what? Diapers and milk. Now, that's unacceptable. So the ability to sort
of think about the shoppers trip now, and the experience they're looking for when they come to
the store, that means you need to rethink the way you're doing everything from a power aisle, an
end cap, what are the things people want fast? And what are the things people might spend a
little time doing, but actually they need a different kind of environment. What are the categories
people are going to do their homework before they come to the store?
Wendy Liebmann: (14:52)
So I think we have to kind of pull apart store, not I think, I know we have to sort of pull apart the
store and look at all those precepts, those... the mythology of what a physical store looked like
and re-envision it within the context of what we now know. And it's not just about when we have
a vaccine, people will go back to the store the way they used to. Get over it, it's done, it was done
before and now it's really done. So that's what I think is really important now, we're saying that
to all of our clients.
Andy Murray: (15:28)
That's fantastic. I mean, that really I think is smart thinking. And if you think about this area of
time because that's really what's escalated in this whole space in addition to safety and other
things, it would be interesting to look at a store and say by category how much time should that
take to make a smart choice of what you came in to get, but also build in a few seconds for some
browsing behavior because that is the advantage of that. We did a couple of studies back in the
day when I was in the shopper marketing space around some of that kind of behavior using the
methodologies that you guys use, which I think is so important to do. It gives you insights way
beyond the data of following and talking to shoppers from the home all the way through.
Andy Murray: (16:08)
And we found on things like refill items where it's razors is a good example. Until you get that
off the list as I need razors and you know what you're going to do, if the buyer by chance puts
the refills in the... because they know they're going to get them anyway and they're really trying
to sell newer systems, that's really frustrating if you can't find that. But it probably is
counterintuitive for a buyer perhaps to put the refills right there. But what we found is that
customer will double back if you've been really efficient and it's all subconscious. So if
subconscious we're going to give that about 90 seconds and that category, and they found it in
the first 10, there's a good chance they'll double back and give you that browsing behavior.
Andy Murray: (16:48)
But if you took all 90 seconds to find the refill, you're not looking at new systems, you're just
trying to get... and that is also true with ice cream and such, but it's difficult to think about it, or
it's really I'd say kind of new to think about the total time budget of the store and what categories
and how do you want to appropriate that time. So the different categories if you think about it
from a total box perspective.
Wendy Liebmann: (17:10)
And I also think in all of this, in this sort of re-envisioning if you will, the store, physical and
digital because I think there are issues with the digital store as well to your earlier point. But as
we think about re-envisioning it, we also have to recognize that the shift to e-commerce has
really raises the questions that many of us have been asking for a long time. How many stores,
how many physical stores, what size do those stores need to be? What categories do we need to
think about? I mean, I think about from the Walmart discussions and what I've been talking to
people about and reading is look at the neighborhood markets as where the growth has come
through this, I mean obviously walmart.com and click and collect and all of that.
Wendy Liebmann: (17:57)
But the neighborhood markets, those small formats that didn't have everything and in the
beginning was like ooh, but I expect Walmart to have everything. Well, actually now I expect
Walmart to have what I need, the right things at least in that space. So as you think about store
size, as we think about how many stores we need, we've been talking about this for years, right?
It used to be a real estate game. It used to be this notion of location, location, location, well guess
what? It's not. And so then the question becomes how many do I need? What size do I need?
And also what goes in that box. And I would say to physical or digital, there are so many
categories that are now emerging sort of what I would call solution categories that have come out
of the pandemic, protection, masks.
Wendy Liebmann: (18:51)
Somebody said to me the other day, where do masks go? Where do we merchandise masks?
They're obviously on every end cap, every whatever, popping up on every screen, but where
should they go? And the conversation is how do shoppers think about them? It's about
protecting, it's about protecting me and my family, what else goes in that hand? Sanitizers,
protection for my pets, protection for my home. I mean, there's an opportunity now as we
re-envision the store through a shopper lens to really think about these new categories, or new
items that have emerged as part of categories. What do we think about there? Things like
immunity, it's not just emergency, it's health and nutrition. Those sorts of things are now
delivered in very different ways.
Wendy Liebmann: (19:42)
And I think they're really, I mean it's hard to say this, it's exciting in a pandemic, but there are
really exciting things that we can do and must do now as both retailers and brands to serve the
shopper's needs in this next six, 12, and then moving forward month.
Andy Murray: (20:02)
Well, it definitely will be exciting and it'll be really exciting for store planners who have to...
what you're basically saying is they're going to need to rethink macro space. And macro space is
not something you do every day because it's so capital intensive and to get a good read that's not
influenced by COVID spikes on what category deserves what space in a macro environment
where you know things have changed, but you're not quite sure what's going to stick and stay,
you're right. This will be exciting times because I'm not sure the data is going to be that clean.
It's not like you're going to have a consistent three years of something to build a trend on us and
we know this trend is going to stay whether it's pet food growing or whatever, to reapportion
space at a macro level, but you're absolutely right, this will be a time of thinking about store
planning again in a macro way that we probably haven't seen a trigger to go do in a long, long
time.
Wendy Liebmann: (20:56)
And I would also say and things like category management, these tools that we've developed
over the last decade or so, how do we have to think about those? So this is where art and science
has to come together. That we have so much data, there is so many analytics that we can look at
today. I know I'm preaching to the converted when I talked to you about that intimate... I mean,
we do all this quant work all the time, but there are always those times when we know you
cannot dismiss the value of this conversation with a shopper and understanding what we call
their shopping life.
Wendy Liebmann: (21:32)
How do they live their life? Economics, the politics, don't mention that but the economic impacts
political, social, technological things that impact the way shoppers lived their life and how does
that then affect how they spend the money on goods and services. So that's both data and
analytics, but it's also the sort of touch and feel and observation that becomes really important as
you step back and say well, what do we think about for the next six months?
Andy Murray: (22:03)
Agreed. And I think the problem with data, I mean I love data, big customer data lakes, and all
the things that could give you from a macro perspective. But I think the last year is going to
cause a lot of challenges with just the data cleanliness and what's really in there and what's really
representative of future behavior. I mean the data... large data, big data gives you, I call it an
abundance of insights, but a poverty of insight and
Wendy Liebmann: (22:30)
I love that. I'm going to steal it.
Andy Murray: (22:33)
Feel free. But it's the... and it's the human touch to be able to synthesize those patterns into what's
really an insight, then having loads of insights and so that requires the human touch observation.
Observation gives you things that surveys even won't give you because people will say they
bought these things and they... you'll find out that none of that behavior actually existed. And so
the power of observation to see people in that space is so important. I'd love to know what your
thoughts are on observation around how the COVID and safety is probably advance some new
shopper behaviors, for example QR codes. If you go to a restaurant today, you're seeing a QR
code as a way to get a menu and QR codes have been around, I don't know what 15, 20 years
maybe.
Andy Murray: (23:19)
And yet we've never had an invite, we've never thought of, or at least I've tried to do it, never got
traction on put in QR code and at least point of sale that lets you get more information about
what's on that shelf. It was just like when a consumer adoption who just not going to use it, but I
think that's changed. I mean, I think because of COVID that might be a place where the shopping
can be a bit more digital, physical at the same time than being such a break. And you think about
packaging and packaging being more interactive and people getting used to that, is that an area
that the digital fiscal combination might show up more in physical retail.
Wendy Liebmann: (23:54)
I think that's true. The experience that you noted. I mean, I think I remember we took one of our
clients on what we call one of our retail safaris around a very specific, not just store tours, very
specific goal. And this was to understand, and this was about 10 years ago, one of the big
packaged goods companies and we were looking at... took their whole [inaudible 00:24:13], the
customer teams. I remember we were in Atlanta and we were looking at various stores that were
using QR codes and how they could be adapted or adopted because retailers were saying QR
codes, no QR codes, all of that. And the breakage issues then with things like they never work
when they're in the store, the store had terrible wifi, all of those operational things and the use,
there wasn't an urgency, it wasn't solving a problem.
Andy Murray: (24:40)
There wasn't a use case really.
Wendy Liebmann: (24:42)
No, that's right. And again, I have a very biased lens, it's through the shoppers' lens and it wasn't
a solution to a problem that shoppers had, it was a new widget something.
Andy Murray: (24:53)
That's right.
Wendy Liebmann: (24:53)
I think today we're now forced into these like it or not technologies that are helping us either be
more efficient, safer, be more informed that we're just being exposed to. So I think that QR codes
or lots of other different tools that we have now, virtual reality... I mean, lots of wonderful
technologies, in the appropriate place now come to play. So you're absolutely right. Restaurants,
perfect option to do that, information on things. Now, the only issue is if I start to adopt that in a
store, is it going to slow me up?
Andy Murray: (25:29)
Yeah, that's right. Comes back to time.
Wendy Liebmann: (25:31)
That's it. Do I bring it on my little phone? And I do all of that right here, can I scan the QR code?
Will it slow me up? Do I do my homework before? We often hear people saying I saw that and
then I went home and then I did my homework and then I ordered it online, look at the journey.
So I think tools that become solutions and are efficient wherever they happen to be, there's an
option now that [inaudible 00:25:59].
Andy Murray: (26:00)
I think you're absolutely right. I think there're some categories where maybe it's you've got
allergies or food nutrition and you're very concerned, you want to do a sugar swap on something
and the packaging is really difficult to get all of the things that today people want to know about.
I could see a QR code especially if you've got some time to browse and you're really into food
and you might see some applications where all of a sudden that transparency becomes a bit more
easy to manage because the technology does that then trying to put everything on the package,
which again can slow you down because it's so difficult for those that already buy that brand. I
don't need all that and it's another thing.
Wendy Liebmann: (26:38)
And I'll also tell you I think it's... sorry, it's package concerns. In a packaging conversation, one
of the interesting things and you asked me this before that we've seen throughout this is issues
around sustainability.
Andy Murray: (26:51)
That's right.
Wendy Liebmann: (26:52)
And so we have seen that hold throughout the pandemic from our first research in April or
March through to current workers, just literally out of a field that people see sustainability or
caring for their environment and their communities as something that remains important. And in
some cases it's increasing, particularly with younger shoppers, but not only. So that challenges
the notion of all this packaging on the shelf, right? What does that packaging look like?
Over-packaged, whatever. So the role of technology there where I can scan something on the
shelf where it's a shelf tag, whether it's a virtual tag, whatever it is, the ability to eliminate some
of that. I mean, all of these factors now start, come in a big way.
Andy Murray: (27:40)
It does almost take a whole triangulation of factors to make the move on some of these bigger
changes because it is a big change in retail. It's a big change in [inaudible 00:27:48] shop and
those don't come around very often. I would not have expected, I guess my own personal belief
was sustainability would have dropped the trigger too at a couple of notches as we went through
COVID, but it sounds like it's held, which I find that fascinating.
Wendy Liebmann: (28:02)
And remember, this is to your point, this is you are right. People, this is mindset, this is attitudes
in our longitudinal work. We've always found that give people, they say it and three to six
months later, they do it and we can see it reflected in purchase data and things like that. So we're
trending that, but the fact that mindset has not changed, in that the people haven't said listen, I'm
now spending money on other things, or I'm not spending on any of this, I don't care, I just need
the basics and leave me alone. That would have been something I might've anticipated, let me
get the best price and let me get it fast and whether it's good for the earth or not, whatever. But
this pandemic I think, has grounded people in an understanding that this is something more
global that we always say in times of chaos, shoppers try to take control of the things they can.
Wendy Liebmann: (28:55)
And sometimes it's as simple as how do I take care of my life, my family, my community and
that's where things like sustainability and ingredients and things that normally we might've
thought only come to bear in good times, that's very interesting that is now very much part of the
everyday value proposition. I won't say for everybody, but certainly 40% of the population and
it's not all money driven, not all income driven, that are saying and consistently have been saying
no, that's an important value proposition, so many now.
Andy Murray: (29:34)
Well, and those that have made a bet on that as a future trend before COVID are going to be
pleased to hear that because that sounds like it's going to stick. Speaking of that, I talk to a lot of
customer journey experts and customer experience people and inevitably they will tell me that
much of the work they're doing either in their own company or for clients is in the space of
fixing dissatisfiers. Which dissatisfiers are probably pretty low hanging fruit to find and work
with because customers are pretty vocal about that and you see it in NPS and other things. But
they're also finding that it's difficult to get organizations sometimes to spend more time and
energy into creating new customer experiences because the fundamental belief is it's hard to
place bets on what they're going to do because they're dynamic, customers can't really tell you,
the data doesn't predict that it's not going to come from the data science area.
Andy Murray: (30:29)
And so to place bets on creating future experiences versus just eliminating dissatisfiers can be
quite challenging and it takes a different skillset. Now, from my knowledge of you and what you
do, I would suggest you would probably agree that actually you can find with more confidence
what customers want because they will eventually tell you or you'll see it, but you're not going to
find it through traditional methods, you need to be in their shoes and get into those spaces. But
what I'm suggesting is the customer, what would really satisfy them as new experience is there to
be discovered because you can get to that. It's not a mystery that you're going to place huge bets
on the future and they're probably further ahead of you than you think.
Andy Murray: (31:12)
So you've got lots of head room to build out that next thing with more confidence and I'm just
trying to encourage more companies to think about the new experiences in order to stay ahead
and move ahead than just looking at eliminating dissatisfiers. Biggest challenge is how do you
really know what customers want and that's kind of one of the main reasons I wanted to talk to
you today because that's what you specialize in. So give our listeners some confidence, you can
have more confidence in designing that future state.
Wendy Liebmann: (31:41)
Yeah, no, it's absolutely true. And sometimes particularly over the last decade or so, as data has
become so available and the analytics have become so powerful that we do forget as I said before
about the sort of art and the science. The opportunity now is to yes, look at all the science, look
at the big data, but I have a very good colleague in Europe who talks about little small data and it
is either the small numbers, who are those people and what are they doing? Are they leaders?
And or it's that very intimate relationship with the individual consumer in their life and their
shopping behavior. And I think one of the things there is, we are all inherently shoppers. You'll
sit in a room of executives and they'll say, no, no, no, I don't do the shopping, I hate shopping, I
do it, whatever.
Wendy Liebmann: (32:33)
I must say it's still often a male thing, I don't do the shopping, I've got somebody to do that, we'll
discuss that later. But this whole conversation around how do I remind myself what it's like to be
a shopper because everybody shops for something, I don't care if you're shopping for a new car
or a technology, or a pair of sneakers, or whatever, you shop for something. So to remind
yourself first that you are a shopper and what are some of those issues that you face and also
loves that you have, gets the executive in a totally different mindset. So this isn't all about you
observing the shopper, it's about observing yourself as a shopper.
Wendy Liebmann: (33:13)
We did a presentation for potential client a number of years ago and not too long ago, but
anyway we were sitting, I went into sort of pitch who we were and aren't we lovely and there
was a whole group of executives from the CEO to whomever. Store design and planning, and
they're all around the room and they're listening to me talk about new insights we have, I thought
they're listening but they're not engaged. So I stopped and I said, you know what? Let's talk
about shopping and tell me about your favorite shopping experience. And all of a sudden this
group of executives [inaudible 00:33:46] and were like oh, oh, oh, and it was shoes and it was
motorbikes and it was food and it was wine and it was this diverse and they weren't in any of
those businesses.
Wendy Liebmann: (33:56)
But the passion and the challenges that all of a sudden emerge and open their minds to actually
that's what that means and that's how I have to think with step one. So how do I the imperative
today of ensuring that management and I would suggest it's very high levels, think about the
shopper customer in very intimate ways that they don't divorce themselves as I'm an executive
and they're the shopper is one thing. I think that's really important, top-down. The other piece is
how do we understand the life our shoppers have? So perfect example, Walmart example, I know
I'm allowed to say that. A Walmart example is with one of the Walmart senior executives a
number of years ago, he and I were walking the stores and we walked down the beauty aisle.
Wendy Liebmann: (34:48)
And as we walked down that aisle and there were... Walmart had just created these universal
fixtures because beauty always gave Walmart a headache, too many SKUs, whatever, whoever's.
Universal fixtures, all of this stuff. And I sent him, you need a mirror in this aisle. And he said to
me oh yeah, there's the cost and there's the breakage and then people will open the lipsticks and
now, because they'll want to put them on and all of this. I said, no, no, no, you don't understand
this. Think about here's a woman walking down the aisle and she's got her shopping cart, she's
got two kids, she's got a list of things to do, she may need a black mascara. That's her essential,
oh gee, I need a black... or lip gloss, so whatever it is. One thing that she's just got to drop in the
basket.
Wendy Liebmann: (35:30)
And all of a sudden she goes past a mirror and that mirror will as an emotional touch point, will
stop her in the aisle and either she will say oh my heavens, I could use a little lipstick. Gee, don't
I look a bit tired or she will say oh my heavens, I forgot I'm a woman. I'm thinking of myself as a
mother and a worker and a juggler and a whatever, oh gee. And so it's being able to interpret
those moments in a very emotional way. What is the emotional touch point? And I think they're
the things that become really important today as we're trying to dig deep into the shifts that we're
seeing that are not revealed in the data that says either what was, or what is now, but we're not
sure to your question, how long that's going to last. Now we have to get to the really intimate
fundamentals of emotional connection.
Andy Murray: (36:26)
Well, and you actually are making two really good points there in addition to getting to those
deeper truths, changing that experience doesn't have to be a complete refit. And there's a big
myth that being more customer centric is a costly journey and it's actually sometimes those very
little things that make a difference. I was on a store visit in Florida years ago in a drug store I
went into and they had used a mirror in a very clever way. It was in the hair coloring section and
they had one up high enough on a 45. Now, I thought that was a bit vicious because, but it
worked because you're walking
Wendy Liebmann: (37:00)
Of course.
Andy Murray: (37:00)
You say oh, I see my roots.
Wendy Liebmann: (37:01)
Roots, roots.
Andy Murray: (37:03)
Exactly. Same kind of
Wendy Liebmann: (37:06)
Brilliant
Andy Murray: (37:06)
Brilliant yet easy to execute. Just put that up at that 45 and she'll see the roots and she's going to
be shopping and so very small costs.
Wendy Liebmann: (37:14)
That's right.
Andy Murray: (37:14)
But it just probably came from somebody really being creative and thinking about and watching
what causes the triggers for that are more emotionally deep.
Wendy Liebmann: (37:23)
The other thing I'll say is we often forget the value of the people in the store. Now, we've learned
that through all of this through COVID because of the essential workers. But we often forget
these little emotional moments and I can think of two. One, another Walmart experience where I
was in one of the big super centers and it was just early days of Walmart doing order online
pickup in the store. And just, Walmart had just changed the name from an associate to a personal
shopper, which seemed like really? Really? Come on Walmart. But I was walking through the
store, I saw a fellow picking an order and I knew what he was doing, but I pretended to be a
shopper.
Wendy Liebmann: (38:03)
And I asked hi, good morning. How are you? What are you doing? And he said oh, I'm picking
an order, I'm pulling together an order for a customer. And I said that's interesting. He said yes,
[inaudible 00:38:13] already explained it to me and what he was doing and I said that's really
interesting. I said oh, I guess that could be... you could be doing my order tomorrow. And he said
to me, that would be my pleasure.
Andy Murray: (38:25)
Lovely, lovely thought.
Wendy Liebmann: (38:27)
So, I tell you the story and I get weepy because it saw me, I saw him. And the other one I'll say
really quickly is the value of the person at the checkout, or the value at the person at the
self-checkout, whatever it is. You have that person who actually you give them a credit card and
they say thank you Wendy when they hand it back and you think, how did they know my name?
Stupid, of course they know. Or it's the person, the associate in the store who's got a name on
their badge. Well, guess what? Hello Andy, how are you today?
Andy Murray: (38:59)
Exactly.
Wendy Liebmann: (38:59)
In these moments, the value of that especially as people will spend, make fewer trips to the store
in the near term and spend less time in the store. The value of that one-to-one connection in the
smallest possible ways is so powerful today and I think they're things that those people who are
already in the stores.
Andy Murray: (39:25)
Well, and just to put some data behind that, I noticed from my experience in [inaudible 00:39:30]
in Walmart, friendly associates can make up for a lot of problems in a trip. And that friendly
associates, someone's actually ranked and looked at it from a customer promoter score from that
shop and the data continues to support that is actually a thing. I mean, it is an important thing for
customers to find a friendly associate and they could write a lot of wrongs, which sometimes
those are going to happen in the retail space no matter what. So Wendy, one last question for
you, we get to speak to and work with a lot of students at the university of Arkansas. I would
love to hear any perspective you might have around how students or those just entering the
workforce might be worth knowing in terms of building on this craft of how do you listen to
customers, or what should they be paying attention to, to have a career that is informed by
customer insights, the way you're talking about it?
Wendy Liebmann: (40:21)
Yeah. I think it's a combination. I think it's a... this being able to remember who you are as a
shopper, that sounds very touchy, touchy, feely, feely, but I think that reminds you of who you
are trying to connect with. I think it's understanding the power of a physical and digital space to
really transform an experience. Sometimes we think about retail as just the you know, you get a
job there over the summer and you pack bags, or stock shelves, or whatever, but this is a place in
a space that has very strong emotional connections on an everyday basis. So I think it's
recognizing it isn't just the metrics in a what do we sell today and what didn't we sell, but it is
understanding the power of retail to connect emotionally. I think the other piece is understanding
the broader context.
Wendy Liebmann: (41:22)
I might sell this, or I might choose to work in this kind of retail space. But what we all know is
that today people will buy anything anyway, truly anything anywhere. And even though we're
trying to be efficient and buy everything under one roof, sometimes if we see it in the car wash
and we see a greeting card or lip gloss, we'll probably buy that there. So that notion as somebody
who is educating themselves about the space, means that I really need to be both observer in a
broad sense of the context of how people live their lives and I need to also be really smart at
looking at the data. But not just the big data, the small data of who are those 10% or 15% of
people and why are they doing what they are doing? It is a fascinating profession. I talk about the
joy of retail all the time because there's an immediacy to it, I put something out and it works or it
doesn't work, but staying connected emotionally as well as analytically becomes really, really
important in this business.
Andy Murray: (42:25)
Yeah. I love it. I love it. I'm with you. I think retail's fascinating and exciting and it's so
important to stay observant and curious. A little challenge I put out sometimes is think about
your routine every single day and then look at one thing that you can see that you never saw
before on your way to work and just train yourself to be observant in even the routine because
you can feel like retail's a bit routine. It does have routine to it, but to stay curious where
everyday you find something, just one thing you hadn't noticed before and it's amazing what
you'll see.
Wendy Liebmann: (42:58)
That's curiosity is when we are looking to hire somebody, curiosity is one of the characteristics
beyond the technical skills that we are always looking for. I will tell you the best opportunities,
used to be sitting on the New York City subway, it's amazing what you would see on the subway
from advertising to people and that was my greatest inspiration every day. So I miss that at the
moment, but that's all right, that's [inaudible 00:43:22].
Andy Murray: (43:23)
[inaudible 00:43:23].
Wendy Liebmann: (43:23)
I'm around. Exactly. Exactly.
Andy Murray: (43:26)
Well Wendy, this has been a real privilege for me to talk to you for this hour and I've continued
to learn a lot and be inspired by your work. You clearly have your hand on this practice area in
spades and have helped many, many companies. So I just want to let you know how much
appreciate I it and we'll put it in the show notes ways for people to get in touch with you for
those that might want to find out more about what you're working on. Any big plans for travel
soon?
Wendy Liebmann: (43:51)
Emotionally, if you're asking
Andy Murray: (43:52)
Emotionally if traveling.
Wendy Liebmann: (43:53)
Where was I supposed to be today? I was supposed to actually be in India. So I'm doing India in
my head at the moment. So that's, you know, that too. There's lots of things to anticipate and
we'll just ease into it like everything else.
Andy Murray: (44:05)
Yes. Well, well done and again, thank you so much. I'm sure the students and practitioners alike
they'll be listening to this, will get much from it. So thank you again.
Wendy Liebmann: (44:13)
My pleasure. Thank you Andy.
Andy Murray: (44:20)
You just listened to an amazing conversation with Wendy Liebmann. Wendy is a prolific leader
in the customer experience space and her work at WSL strategic retail has provided amazing
shopper insights that everyone can benefit from. Wendy shared with us some of her research
insights on COVID-19 and shopper trends, the importance of looking at small chunks of data to
analyze and gain meaningful insights rather than the whole. And she also gave encouraging
advice to students who are looking to engage in the customer journey and customer experience
fields. Thank you Wendy.
Andy Murray: (45:00)
That's it for this episode of It's a Customer's World. If you found this helpful and entertaining, I
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Customer's World podcast is a product of the University of Arkansas customer centric leadership
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